Nova Chat - Neurodivergence in the C-Suite

Jeremy · 0:00

Hey friends, welcome to episode 306. It's another Nova Chat with my friend Maggie Olson discussing a very fascinating topic, which is neurodivergence in the C-suite. And as I've said in the past, the goal of my podcast is to highlight people with different stories and different experiences, all related to our role as executive assistants, administrative professionals and all the other dozens and dozens of titles in the executive support world. So as you are navigating your role as a leader assistant in the workplace, there are a lot of different topics that are relevant in different scenarios and different settings with different executives and different colleagues and so on and so forth. And so I'm really excited today for Maggie's Nova Chat that she had a discussion with Sydney Elaine Butler, Eliana Bravos, and Jessica McBride about their personal experiences with neurodivergence in the C-suite. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation. You can check out the show notes at leaderassistant.com/306 and again enjoy this Nova Chat on neurodivergence in the C-suite.

Speaker 2 · 1:23

The Leader Assistant Podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become confident, game-changing leader assistants.

Jeremy · 1:40

Hey friends, the Nova Chief of Staff Certification Course is one of the most popular professional development resources for growth-minded leader assistants like you. With dozens of templates, self-paced learning, multiple instructor touchpoints, and peer engagement, Nova alumni walk away empowered and confident to level up as an assistant or even negotiate a promotion to a Chief of Staff role. With well over 500 students across 22 countries, Nova is the top spot for Chief of Staff learning and development. Join the movement today at leaderassistant.com/nova. That's leaderassistant.com/nova.

Maggie · 2:26

It's really, really exciting to be here. Again, my name is Maggie Olson. I'm the founder of Nova Chief of Staff, the premier destination for Chief of Staff education and development. Check out our website for more information about our acclaimed Chief of Staff certification course. We've got a lot of other stuff on there. We built a course with our very own Jessica McBride, who's on the call here as a panelist, AI for Chiefs of Staff. Got a lot of fun stuff's going on. But essentially today, we are here to talk about neurodivergence in the C-suite. Whether you're neurodivergent or not, or you think you might be, or you just really don't know if these are new terms to you, maybe you consider yourself neurotypical and you just want to be a better ally to those around you, you are welcome to this chat. I have found, I think that we will get deep into this today, but there's all this language now that talks about people in ways that help us understand each other. And I think that neurodivergence and neurodifferences and, you know, neurodiversity and neurotypical, all of these things and words help us understand each other better and helps us understand ourselves better. And my goal is on this call, we can learn from each other. We can learn about ourselves and we can really just learn how to be better allies and better community members in our work and in our lives. So one of my favorite things about owning my own business now is that we can talk about what we want to talk about, shine a light on what's important and talk to some really special people based on kind of the things that we want to discuss. So I'm going to start here with introductions and then we're going to go into, we're going to kind of route after introductions on some definitions. And then we're going to go from there and dive into some questions that I have for our panelists. So I would love to hear from each of our panelists and I'll kind of pass the mic off to each of you. Please tell us who you are. Tell us about the company that you run and what you do for people in your community. Do you consider yourself neurodivergent, neurodiverse, and anything else that you'd like to share to help this group understand who you are and why you're here today? So I will start with Jessica McBride.

Jessica · 4:45

Hello, I'm Jessica McBride. I'm the founder of TechSavvy Assistant. I was an executive assistant up until 2023. I was laid off and I since started my own business where I teach admins technology, a lot of different things about advocacy and empowerment. I identify as autistic and ADHD or ADHD as some people say and I was diagnosed around 32. So I was very late diagnosed and before that they considered me just depressed and anxious. I really like acknowledging the neurodivergence and talking about it because I'm finding that the more I speak about it, the more my peers can relate to it and understand why they may have been struggling also. So that's part of the piece that I talk about with the work that I do in my business.

Maggie · 5:30

Yeah. Thank you for sharing, Jessica. We'll get to Shay last. Shay is the sponsor of this event with Mentra, his company. And so we'll go to Eliana next.

Eliana · 5:41

Hey, everyone. I'm Eliana. I usually hear pronouns. I have ADHD as well as some mental health disabilities. And I'm one of the co-founders of ND Connect. We're a new startup. We've been around for about a year now. And we are the global peer mentorship and community platform for neurodiversion professionals. I'm really passionate about peer mentorship and community because finding a mentor personally who also just had ADHD completely by accident really changed my life for the better. And so I'm really looking to make connections like this and finding your people, a community of people who really understand you and want to support you and champion you, more accessible to everybody. And I'm really proud because we're almost 1,000 people now in just the last year. So it's really exciting just to see how many people are coming. But yeah, I am also really passionate about road trips and spending time outside. And I'm also really approachable, accessible person. So if you have questions and you're considering, you know, am I neurodivergent or what are some tips to help with task initiation or, oh God, like I have ADHD and I don't even know what that means or where to get started. Please, please, please feel free to reach out to me. And I'm happy just to talk as a founder, as a peer. And, you know, if there's any ways that I can be helpful, I'd like to be so. Yeah. Nice to meet you.

Maggie · 6:58

Awesome. Thanks, Eliana. And our team will link each of these folks' businesses in the chat. So we're not going to overwhelm the chat and do it all at once all the time. But you will get that in the chat and in our post recap email, too. So, OK, Sydney, over to you.

Sydney · 7:14

Hi, everyone. I'm Sydney Elaine Butler. I am the founder of Accessible Creates. And I founded Accessible Creates. It's going to be actually three years, the end of August, which feels surreal. But I founded Accessible Creates because I realized, I studied human resources and I worked in human resources for a little bit. I really realized that human resources and businesses as a whole weren't really inclusive and accessible to neurodivergent folks as well as people with disabilities. And so now I'm kind of an HR consultant and the UNI consultant, as well in the space of accessibility and neurodiversity, really helping businesses understand the importance of making sure that they know how to better retain employees with disabilities and their neurodivergent. I think there's a lot of emphasis on recruitment, but we already exist in your workplace and what does that look like? So then I provide training, consulting, coaching, and to make sure these workplaces are inclusive and accessible. And I am autistic and also have CPTSD, and I'm also have all these different identities that I bring with me. And I also am a dog mom.

Maggie · 8:20

Amazing. Me too. Awesome. Well, thanks for being here, Sydney. With that, I want to dive a little bit deeper into kind of why I want to have this chat and why neurodivergence and neurodiversity is on my mind. And I identify as a neurotypical person. I also am not an expert in this field. And that's why Jessica, Eliana and Sydney are here. They know a lot more than I do. And it's really possible that I might make a stumble or mistake or I might say something wrong. And I've welcome our panelists to correct me, to tell me how to say something differently, more thoughtfully, the right way. I think the conversation is what's the important part here. So with that, a little bit of a personal story. I grew up with my dad, love my dad, great guy, very, very noise sensitive, really quick to get overwhelmed with noise. And with that, he didn't really know what was going on. Like he couldn't say, I'm noise sensitive. This is overwhelming me. I take, you know, I'm like, I have a lot of struggle. I can't process normal things going on when there's too much noise. And so I lash out in different ways there. He did not have the language for that. So I didn't understand it. He didn't understand it. Well, I'm 38 years old now. I'm a mom to an 18 month old. And I've realized in the last couple of years that I'm also very noise sensitive and I'm light sensitive too. At the gym, it's inside, but there's big windows and I wear sunglasses just because I can get migraines and the light. It's just too much. I've done some research and I understand and I'm going to go through a few definitions. And this is just my brief personal story here that when it comes to neurodivergence versus being neurotypical, neurotypical people process the world in a way that works for societal norms. And I'll read some more specific definitions here before we pass it over to the panelists. But that's how I consider myself because I don't feel like I need any different accommodations in those ways or in different ways to process the environment or societal norms besides what I've just shared. But I really don't know. The point is the conversation and the language is what's important. And Eliana, Sydney and Jessica have a lot to share and a lot of knowledge around neurodivergence and the companies they run and how it shows up in the C-suite as well, which running a chief of staff company, that's also what we want to talk about is how do we support each other in these high pressure, high stakes chief environments with CEOs and business leaders who have their own difficulties sometimes and we can have run ins there with neurotypical and neurodivergent folks. So a little bit of a back story in finding all of this out about myself and just having a little more language, it just makes me want to understand people better and makes me feel a little more sensitive to people who might have a lot more extreme sensitivities than I do in certain ways. And it makes me feel more connected to my neurodivergent peers. So that's why we're here today. I'm almost done with my part here, but I'm going to share a couple definitions and then we're going to pass it over to our panelists to dive in a little bit deeper. So what constitutes a neuro-typical employee? Characteristics of a neuro-typical employee. Neuro-typical employees typically exhibit conventional social interactions and communication skills. They can more easily understand expectations and can independently organize and manage their work to meet deadlines. They're generally not as sensitive to environmental stimuli, such as sounds or activities around them, and have a structured thinking pattern. Or maybe just a more typical structured thinking pattern. What constitutes a neurodivergent employee? The characteristics of neurodivergent employees vary depending on the specific type of neurodiversity, sometimes leading to unconventional responses to expectations or social norms. They may be extremely sensitive to sensory stimuli, including sights, sounds, or visuals, more of a diverse thinking pattern. Neurodivergent communication may include preferences that are different than neurotypical communication. For example, written instead of verbal communication. There may be discomfort with eye contact or statements may be taken more literally. Communication styles, as we all know, can vary widely, necessitating really clear and explicit instructions and a flexible approach to interpersonal interactions. So I wanted to ground us today on some definitions. And I want to hear from, we're going to start with Eliana. What are your reactions to those definitions? And what would you add when you think about how we can root ourselves today in the definition of neurodivergence and the awareness that we should have from neurodivergence and neurotypical people? I'm Maggie Olson, founder of Nova Chief of Staff Certification, the first of its kind online course for aspiring and existing Chiefs of Staff. With curriculum taken directly from on-the-job responsibilities, Nova's self-paced learning modules provides you with hands-on experience so you can feel competent and confident moving into a Chief of Staff-style role. It's the perfect next step for executive assistants. Head to leaderassistant.com/nova to learn more, grab the syllabus, and enroll today.

Eliana · 13:42

Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the things, I'm a very visual person, so you can imagine like a gradient, like kind of like what I have in the background here maybe. You know, every single point on this gradient is different, just like all of our brains are different. But then if you think about a gradient like that, there's also kind of like ranges. And so I like thinking about neurodivine reality as kind of like the most common like range of like human neurology. So even though every single brain is like different within that, you know, there's kind of like group averages and ways that you know, certain traits tend to like cluster together. And then if you're like have a brain that's kind of like outside of that most common range, then you're like neurodivergent. And so, you know, that can include differences of how you process information, how you learn, how you process your own emotions, how you communicate. So different things under those types of categories. I think too, one of the important things for me is thinking about sort of like power dynamics, because I think for a lot of times, people who are neurodivergent, you experience stigma, like ableism, discrimination in different settings. And so, you know, as you mentioned, a bit Maggie, you know, we might need to have more accommodations in different contexts. The world isn't set up by default to support and accommodate us in many settings. And that's kind of part of like not being part of that like majority range, right? So what works for the majority might not work for people who have different needs or, yeah, ways of showing up. And so a lot of times when you're diverging people under spaces that are primarily designed by neurotypical people, it's not like, you know, there's an intentional like malice there, but sometimes it could be, it takes more work to make sure that that space really does like accommodate for everybody. And, you know, we're accounting for those different power imbalances as well.

Maggie · 15:46

Yeah, yeah, that's fair. That makes a lot of sense. Sydney, welcome. I'd love to hear your thoughts on a bit. So we, you know, we're just going to dive right in here. We've we've talked, you know, when we were kind of all meeting early on before this webinar around neurodivergence and neurotypical and what makes neurodivergence even harder, which is intersectionality. And when we were all just on our panelists chat right before this, everybody said, I have a stimming tool. You guys want to show what you had? Jess, you want to show what you have? Yeah. So Sydney has perfect. Yep. Shea has one as well. So Sydney, do you want to tell us a little bit about stimming and then maybe how intersectionality shows up in the example that you've previously given around maybe someone who's stimming and they're also of a different race?

Sydney · 16:40

Yeah. So stimming is basically a way of self-regulation. And so it can look like doing vocal stims, making sounds, doing physical actions, for example, mine are more physical. So rocking back and forth, I do a sort of hand flap. And I also, I do my hand flap in two different ways. And so sometimes I do this and I'm excited. And other times I do it closer to me. And that means I'm stressed and anxious and need to calm down. And so when you're racialized, it can sometimes look different to other people. And people can think it's scary or think that's the trigger of trying to hurt someone else. Because, you know, when you lift your you know, keep your hands to yourself, that old saying. And so when you lift your hands and you're elevating them, people think that can pose different dangerous situations. They say, Oh, you're going to hurt me, you're going to attack me, it's just going to help. I'm just trying to self-regulate. And that thing that doesn't happen to people that are not racialized, but it's more likely to happen to people that are racialized, given the history and the racism that also exist. And so being neurodivergent and being racialized, and that was intersectionality, and being female passing, all included intersectionality, and understanding how that impacts how someone shows up. And so actually, with the stints that I do, I would actually hurt myself because I would try and contain that, for example, in a school setting. I did it one time and my teacher yelled at me, and I was eight years old, and because I was doing this, because I was excited about what we were learning in class. And she's like, don't do that, you're going to hurt someone. And so I reshuted in words. And so instead of, I started doing this instead, and I would get bruises on my hands from trying to contain that. And it was very difficult and very upsetting. And I know we're going to talk about masking later in the workplace, but started to mask those stims. And it wasn't until 2020 when I really sat with myself and was like, could be more me, because the world was shut down. And I started doing them again and realizing that I used to do this more as a child, but it felt so good to release that happy thoughts and to release those anxieties I was feeling.

Maggie · 18:59

Wow.

Sydney · 19:01

That was a lot, I'm sorry.

Maggie · 19:02

No, no, I'm just happy. Yeah, exactly. Like, I'm thankful that 2020 gave you that time back with yourself to figure out what you needed. It was making me think a little bit about, Jessica, what you were saying during your intro prior to diagnosis, and how for you that came out as depression and anxiety prior to realizing that you were actually neurodivergent, ADHD, autistic. Do you want to talk a little bit about the diagnosis? And Eliana and Sydney, feel free to jump in here after Jessica, too, if you think that there's a little bit more to share around kind of that process of embracing your neurodivergence and how it feels now that you're like, this is me and this is how I am.

Jessica · 19:48

Yeah, what happened for me kind of similar was around 2020, we all start working from home. And prior to that, I had been on mental health leave for work. Like, I always really struggled with my mental health. I would do exceptionally well, and then I would burn myself out. And then I would just be left like a shell of a person and, you know, wanting to do bad things. And so 2020 hits and my life like immediately shifted. It was like, oh, my God, like, I love this. I love working from home. I love not being in an office because when I worked in an office, I was literally home every single day and just lay down in the dark room. I was so tired and I was like, oh, I have so much more energy. This is great. And I really started was like, oh, this is I can heal myself in a lot of ways and everything was going great. I was doing everything right. I had a job. I was I was nailing it. And yet I was still really sad and like I couldn't quite figure it out. I was medicated. Anyway, I ended up burning myself at a job again because that's what I do. And I had to quit very like just hard quit. And I started doing three things happened at the same time. A friend reached out to me and she's a life coach and she teaches burlesque and she does a lot of cool things. And she was running a course called F Perfect. And it was all about how people who are socialized as women, we develop these like insane perfectionism techniques or like, yes, like we have to be perfect all the time. And it's so stressful. And this is as soon as I started unpacking that, I learned it. It hit me really quickly. It's like, oh my god, like I force this on myself all the time. I hold myself these incredibly high standards. Like I have to be above and beyond everyone. And it's killing me. It's quite literally going to kill me if I don't stop. So simultaneously, my, at the time, 11 year old child started getting a cess for ADHD. And I said, well, no, they can't have it because I did all those things. I did all those things as a child and I'm perfectly fine. I wasn't. So very quickly realized I also was ADHD and I started therapy. And I really was able to unmask really quickly in that sense, because once I realized that I don't have to be perfect, I don't have to be fake in social situations. I can say, I'm tired now. And I can take care of myself in that way and leave. I was like, oh, this is great. I love myself. I love the person that I was before everybody told me not to be that person growing up. And it's been so great for my mental health. And then shortly after, I realized I was autistic. But that was very much the sensory things kind of started showing up as soon as I started medicating the ADHD. But it's really been an amazing process for me to unmask. But like Sydney talks about, there is so much societal, there's issues attached to it, where I have privileges as a white woman, that others aren't going to be accessing as well or as easily. And that's why it's so important to talk about this and say, no, you can speak up. Like you can say, I'm tired or this bothers me, or I'm going to wear my headphones or I'm going to do things like that. And it doesn't make me weird. It just makes me a little different than other people. But the more that we know, the more we can empower others to also be able to access this level of healing and success in life.

Maggie · 23:08

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've heard a few times from friends and people I'm working with that they figured out they had ADHD when their kids were getting diagnosed. Because I also believe that women, you know, were just not diagnosed when we should be a lot younger, right? It happens a lot later. We're much better at masking probably because of the perfectionism that is that we grew up in with society. But yeah, I'm 2020, like really good things for both of you in that. Eliana does.

Sydney · 23:37

Yeah.

Jessica · 23:39

It happened to a lot, like a lot of, I speak to a lot of nerve divergence. And they're like, yep, same thing. Like I just, I was at home and I didn't have to show up professional every day and it was like, oh, I'm a totally different person when I don't have expectations. Yeah. How I show up in society.

Maggie · 23:55

Yeah. And I want to get back to this. You literally said, and I think this is so important, you learned how to take care of yourself and that it was okay to take care of yourself, which is incredible. So we'll get there. But Eliana, please weigh in.

Eliana · 24:08

Yeah, this is actually my story as well to you. So when I was a good child, I actually had like a conspiracy theory that Walmart, like tries to make you sick when you go in. So then you're like dizzy and like kind of out of it. So then you buy more things. And like, I really believe this. And like I really said, I had sensory needs at that point in time. But I remember, yeah, everything kind of stopping in 2020. And being home for the first time. And it was like, I had been experiencing almost like a brain fog for like a lot of my life. And it was the first time that I felt like I could really think clearly. And I really didn't even recognize that I was getting overstimulated before because I was so used to just like pushing myself and pushing myself and pushing myself. And that was like my whole life was being in these environments and just, you know, what are the other options? I didn't feel like, I just thought that like everybody moves through the world this way. And like, I didn't realize that things could even be different until I had the opportunity to pause and realize like, whoa, is this what it's like to be human? Like, it's so nice. And I also like really experienced like major mental health disability stuff and burnout because similar to Jessica, I would just push myself. And I felt, you know, it got to the point where I don't know, it was something that I felt like really like ashamed about because I felt like I also couldn't talk about it. And I didn't understand like what was going on. Like, I felt like, you know, I really asked him like, open these environments just fine. Like, why am I struggling? And then the thing to do is when you do with job, people often don't reach out and say, you know, like, what's going on? Like, how can I support you? They often take the approach of, you know, you're being flaky or, you know, you're being a difficult employee or even like amongst friends. Like, yeah, like, does she just not like us anymore? Like, there are a lot of, like, those, like, assumptions when, like, you do burn out and you kind of, like, I don't know, withdraw and you just want to, like, lay underneath your blanket. And so I think just like as an actionable piece of advice, I definitely think, like, asking and not assuming is like a really good kind of, like, universal rule of thumb in these situations, but also like trusting people when they tell you what they need and, you know, assuming that they're doing it, like, for the good of your company instead of, like, against it. Like, I hate all of these, like, mandated, like, return to office policies. Like, that's really hard. Like, I work way better. I'm a million times more productive at home as a remote worker than I have ever been in an office setting when I'm there and I'm, like, forced to stare at my screen with, like, the fluorescent lights going on and there's, like, the air conditioner, like, buzzing and I'm, like, oh my God, like, and so I think just, like, you know, being able to give people that flexibility and also, you know, it is kind of, like, a privilege to even be able to be open about your access needs at work. And so I think also creating a culture where it's okay for, like, everybody to be able to advocate for what they need. And it's not like you need to dispose a disability or an access need to, you know, even be able to have these options. I think that that just creates a better culture that supports everybody. And I think, too, one of the big things that really helped me in 2020 was just really internalizing the idea that there is really no one right way to think behavior exists. Because in those spaces, like, like there is, like, it's like, you know, this is like how you're like the ideal employee or this is like, you know, how you're the ideal student or, you know, the ideal whatever. And so I think just like recognizing and really just trying to put that idea into practice, recognizing a lot of these norms, like are set by people that, you know, are like the default in these spaces and recognizing that, like, you know, it's a good thing that we're different in these ways and it's okay to, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just kind of rambling now. That was kind of my experience.

Maggie · 27:53

Yeah, absolutely. So why don't we talk here about, I want to, I want to dive into the C-suite a little bit. And I know, Jessica, you've got experience as an executive assistant, you know, business leaders. Sydney, I believe that you also have, you know, worked with and trained folks who are in the C-suite. Eliana, I know it's like an adjacent, adjacent to your world. Often business leaders and kind of the higher up you go, sometimes they're actually not the best leaders, which kind of goes hand in hand with maybe not so much emotional intelligence. Now, maybe on one side, it can be a little easier when it's just order after order and things are really clear. And maybe it can be a little harder when somebody can't interpret nuance or be flexible in their approach or kind of tailor the environment or their demands based on the person they're working with. I think it can, there's probably multiple sides here. But I would love to hear, Jessica, let's start with you, your experience around being neurodiverse with folks in the C-suite and how that shows up for you and your peers and the added pressure of kind of that environment where you talk about perfectionism. It's about looking the part, acting the part, having the executive presence, being polished, being prepared, being high achieving when you are probably like, I'm already burnt out, how do I do all these things and do my job successfully? So talk to me a little bit about how you've interacted within the C-suite.

Jessica · 29:30

So very lucky in the sense of when I was getting diagnosed, the person that I was supporting was like a decently decent human being. Like it was, it's very eye-opening to me to work with a CEO like that because I have been treated so poorly in the past by like other executives. So it was really refreshing to be like, hey, I'm having a really bad mental health day, like I'm going to take it off. And like openly being able to say that to him without having to worry about him, like being awful about it. And I think that's part of how I was able to actually unmask to and like excel was that like when you're given the psychological safety within an organization to say like, I don't understand. I think I made a mistake. I think I'm having a bad mental health day and I can't handle just existing. Being able to comfortably say that is what's going to give you employees that will ride or die for you, that are going to like care and like you'll be able to access all this like, you know, ADHD superpower that they talk about is, you know, when I'm feeling like supported and you know, like I'm in a safe environment, like guess what? Like I genuinely am like the most ideal employee you're ever going to have. But you don't get that a lot. And unfortunately, that's something that we have to address is, how do we teach emotional intelligence? I found gentle parenting as a technique really helpful with working with people because if you just talk to them really calmly and quietly and like, you know, in a chill way, you can kind of get it a little bit better. But I'm hoping to see the younger generations really, that's kind of where my hope is at for creating these more like accommodating offices as people like yourself. Like my husband, for example, my husband is ADHD and he's a VP. And to see him care for his employees the way that I've been cared for, in my past experience is really reaffirming to me that there is help for creating these more inclusive environments that are more supportive. And it really is just like to have more conversations like this, because people don't even understand the intricacies, because they don't understand themselves, because a lot of them haven't taken the time to really learn themselves ins and out. The way that a lot of us do in like an eternal hope of like, how do I exist in this world in an okay manner? So I think that's kind of one of the benefit of having somebody in your office that is neurodivergent is it gives you a different insight of like how things can operate.

Maggie · 31:56

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I publicly shared my appreciation for Gen Z in requiring a much more flexible work environment and in requiring that work matters to your to your life as well. And in advocating for themselves and not asking permission in the ways that they shouldn't be asking permission for, like, I need to go to a doctor's appointment. Is that OK? Like, Gen Z is out here saying, I have a doctor's appointment. I'll be back at two. Like, great. I'm good with that as a leader, you know, like take initiative. But I do think that there's a lot that has come probably from 2020. And also, just from this new generation, that I deeply feel that millennials, we just didn't have. Jessica, are you a millennial as well? Yeah. Sydney, are you Gen Z?

Sydney · 32:47

I'm confused at what I am because I'm 1997, and I was told I was a millennial. Now I'm told I'm Gen Z. So I'm just going to say I'm a millennial.

Maggie · 32:54

OK, you're a millennial probably. Eliana, how about you?

Eliana · 32:57

I'm Gen Z.

Maggie · 32:58

OK, yeah. Yeah. And so I think that millennials, like, have had these feelings without the articulation or the, like, example of how to have those conversations. We've just been following our, like, Gen X and Baby Boomer example of, like, oh, we got to show up and we got to... And then now here we are with Gen Z working with us as peers or working for us, and we're seeing what this can look like. And it's refreshing. It's very refreshing. So I hope that that continues and that all of our, you know, slightly more flexible work environments can just continue to open up conversation and, I mean, drive productivity. Like you guys have all said, you are way more productive in a place where you are comfortable and safe. And that's better for business, right? So I want to talk about masking a bit before we get into some of the more specific things here so that the folks on the call understand all the terms that we've been using. What is masking? Sydney, do you want to take this one?

Sydney · 34:00

It's like, I haven't, it's basically, I call it like a chameleon. Because you kind of, and like shapeshifter almost because, for example, in high school, I felt like a chameleon because I would wear a different mask depending on who I was with. I did drama and so I would put that mask on. I'd hang out with the burnouts, put that mask on, hang out with the jocks, hang out with the nerds. Sometimes masking to just fit into different situations basically, and not showing who you truly are and showing exhibits of displaying new and different traits. It is exhausting. So when 2020 happened, I know we're talking a lot about 2020, but I agree with what Eliana said, and we're just like I said, doing so much and to not let the mask slip, and just feeling like everyone else is keeping up, and to be a human means to be busy. I was going to school full-time, almost working full-time hours. I was actually helping kids, teens, and adults with disabilities that are also neurodivergent, and volunteering and doing all these things to get a career in human resources. And so I didn't realize how much of the time I was masking. And sometimes now, I actually put the mask on, but my mask looks different now. It's like I still try and be me, but sometimes, okay. Still have to put on and hide some of my traits, and for our safety, we have to mask, because sometimes we feel like we would be discriminated or not fully understood if we show our traits. And especially as a racialized individual, I feel like it's like almost double masking. It feels like there's like that thick hoop. But really understanding that masking, I was like, oh, it's good that you mask, and it leads to a severe burnout because you have to do the task, and you're also exuding energy to do the day-to-day tasks, so by being a different person or stifling parts of you. And people don't realize how exhausting that is. And I think when, again, when the pandemic first happened, and actually because I had to do my internship, but we had a little bit of internship started, and school actually offered us that. And so we had like four weeks between school and my internship, and I slept a long time during those times. And I realized that I was so tired from all the tasks, and the energy, and that I wasn't being most authentically me. And really I'm saying, okay, who is Sydney? What do I want to do? And okay, how do I show up in the world? Is it because I want to be most me, where I can be me, where I can also be safe, and working in remote environments, having different things, being around my loved ones, and really understanding who I am, and that I don't have to mask with the time. And for example, I remember the first time I didn't mask in a remote environment, I was so scared. And I was like, I'm going to get burnt out, and I don't want to do anything if I don't. So I am masked. And it was very scary. And I was really working with them for a little bit. And they're like, oh, you acted kind of different the other day. Is everything okay? And I was like, well, that's actually like, you know, more closely to who I am. And it wasn't, they said it wasn't that big of a difference, but it was a noticeable difference. And so I think that was really interesting.

Maggie · 37:46

Absolutely. So part of this conversation, you know, we've been talking a lot about, a lot about a lot, masking and diagnosis and accommodations, but there's a lot of research out there that shows that certain conditions like autism, dyslexia, bestow actually like really special skills in a lot of ways, pattern recognition, memory, mathematics, autism often presents higher IQ scores than average. Neurodiverse teams are 30% more productive than neurotypical ones and make fewer errors. Sadly, on the flip side of that, neurodivergent people have a lot harder time finding employment and are often higher unemployment rates. But that's why we've got people like you guys leading amazing companies out there to help change this and Shay too, which is great. But I want to talk a little bit about the special strengths that neurodivergent people have and how people at work can leverage their neurodivergent peers. We can get into also the flip side of like, okay, how do we make it a neurodivergent and inclusive environment? But right now, I really want to talk about the strengths and what's so special about having neurodivergent people on our team. Eliana, do you want to start with this one?

Eliana · 39:06

I can. Give me one second. I'm just I like have a resource on this that I'm opening up just because I have.

Maggie · 39:16

Yeah, take your time.

Eliana · 39:18

But yeah, there's definitely for this kind of conversation, I always like to have a caveat that every single person, even within the neuro type category, even us as 80 years, we all have different strengths for all different styles. I would still take a very individualized approach in your workplace, but the reality is to the people with different neuro types do tend to cluster towards having a consolation of different strengths as well. So I'm happy to talk about that a little bit. Also, just because somebody has strengths doesn't mean that, of course, they don't have support needs as well, because I think sometimes people also assume that if you're really good at some things, then suddenly you don't need any support in any other areas, and that's totally not the case.

Maggie · 40:06

It's like masking the other need that you need.

Eliana · 40:09

Yeah, and a lot of neurodivergent people have spiky profiles, and so you might have some strengths, but then you also might have some things in other areas that you really need support with.

Maggie · 40:19

Yeah.

Eliana · 40:20

But yeah, so I can definitely talk about some of these. So one research paper came out about people with developmental dyslexia. There's some theorizing that their brains are more specialized for exploration, so that's kind of cool. Also, people who are dyslexic tend to have more curiosity and be visionary. Tons of strong visual-spatial thinking skills are going to kind of harnessing the team strengths and delegating tasks and tend to be very proactive. I have a bunch of different ones. I don't know how much detail I should get into, but I can kind of talk about some.

Maggie · 40:57

Well, we can send out resources after this as well in our post-recap call, for sure. Jessica, anything you want to add to this conversation? And I mean, I might take it a bit of a step further. There's a few different schools of thought around the term superpower, right? And then you compare the term superpower to calling neurodivergence a difficulty or an issue. So how do you use language? How do you suggest people use language to talk about neurodivergence when it comes to strengths and opportunities?

Jessica · 41:35

I'm not going to have a very educated opinion about this.

Maggie · 41:38

That's OK.

Jessica · 41:39

I probably would. This kind of circles back to the idea of that I have a lot of privilege that has allowed me to excel is that I was in a supportive environment. I have universal health care because I'm in Canada. I had a therapist. I had all these resources. And because of that, I was able to tap in to my unique skills and all these things that I would not have been able to access when I was burned out. And I was so exhausted because when you're in survival mode 24-7, you don't get to be exceptional. You get to survive. And you get to do it and show up and then go home and lay in your room all day or all night. So, if we can start talking about, not just how do we accommodate you, but how do we help you thrive? How do we help you show up in the workforce to be the best version of yourself? That's the privilege. That's the, you get to use my skills to amplify your business and do all these things. Because I do have amazing things like, I have really great pattern recognition. One of my great, the best things of being an executive assistant is, it's really easy to speak to a bunch of different people and pull together a full picture of a problem the way that other people wouldn't. My brain makes connections that a lot of other brains don't. That's part of my inner gift. But like I said, if I'm so tired because you make me show up in an office every day and sit under this bright light with a lot of noise, and you're not acknowledging my cries for help, then you're going to get the burnt out shell of a person. And that's really what it roots down to is, how do we create this more inclusive environment so that we can excel?

Maggie · 43:21

Yeah. How do we help you thrive? I love that. I mean, it's great for anybody, and it's great for neurodivergent people for sure. Sydney, do you have anything to add around the language of, what's your superpower versus the opportunity or difficulty or issue? There's so many different people saying so many different things, right? And how do we help people understand the best way to talk about neurodivergence that's respectful?

Sydney · 43:44

Yeah, I think when a lot of people say, oh, that's your superpower. And it's like, do you say that to neurodivergent folks, do you say that to people that don't? Because we all have our different superpowers, again, neurodivergent or not. And so what do you actually mean you say that? And I think using all the, oh, what do you think, what do you like to do? What are you passionate about instead? And then focusing on those passions and realizing that someone might be good at something, but they're not passionate about it or vice versa. They might be passionate, but it might not be the strong suit. Okay, but you want to develop that passion more. Okay, this is how we can get you there. On the flip side, this is your strength, and you're passionate about something. And so really meeting people where they're at, I think is super important. And like Eliana said about just because someone's really good at something, and maybe we're asking the other part that needs that support. And so really seeing the person for the whole person they bring, and even that things can look different every day. Like Jessica was just hinting at, it's like if I'm not in a conducive environment, I'm tired, my superpower or my strength that I'm so good at, I'm not going to be as good at today. And so we said, oh, you're usually really good at that. What happened? Did you have a bad night? Like, oh, is something happening? Are you okay? And it's like, I'm human, I'm going to not have great days. And so for example, I do a lot of policy work right now with some of my clients, and my brain fog is so bad right now. I apologize in advance. I can revisit this when the brain fog goes away. I'm usually really good at policies and love doing policies. And so, you know, but they're like, oh, that's your super power. I'm like, right now, I don't, you know, and that's my strength. And that, you know, right now, I am human and I'm having a moment where I can't.

Maggie · 45:40

Yeah, absolutely. Eliana, please.

Eliana · 45:42

Yeah, I think for me and a lot of other Gen Z neurodivergent people, like a lot of us really don't resonate with superpower language because it does feel, somebody put in the chat and I agree, it feels kind of patronizing and also very otherizing. Like we all have strengths and weaknesses, like just as like human beings. And so when you're like ADHD is your superpower, I'm like, what does that mean? And it also feels very like one-dimensional. You know, like ADHD for me, like I do definitely have strengths. And that's definitely related to like the way that my brain functions. But I also do have like access and support needs. Personally, I also like saying like disabled is not a bad word. Like, you know, and I don't, I know not all neurodivergent people, like identifies as disabled and like that's okay. But I think that, you know, a lot of us do and there's nothing wrong with being disabled. There's nothing wrong with having like other like access needs and, you know, needing environmental supports or whatever else. And so, you know, I like saying, you know, I have ADHD, to me, it is a disability, but that doesn't also mean that it's only like a negative thing. And I think that that's also like a common misconception is that disability is like framed in this very like negative ones, instead of just like another way of like being your existing. And so, yeah, I don't know. I know there's also like a lot of power in like, you know, being in disability community with like all these other disabled people. And we're all like, you know, working together and sharing tips. And sometimes, you know, I want tips from like my friends with like chronic illnesses. And I don't have a chronic illness, but some of that stuff like really does help in like an ADHD context too.

Maggie · 47:10

So yeah, yeah. So here's a question just off the cuff as a I've been a people leader for a few decades now. Let's say that I have someone on my team who has not told me that they are neurodivergent, but maybe I've seen a few things that to me may indicate that they are. What's my best path forward? Do I say, do I approach the neurodivergence head on and bring it up? Or do I say, how could I make work the best I can for you? What kind of environment do you need to succeed? Option two?

Sydney · 47:46

I think option two. And I always say to the managers and people leaders, you might see it because you saw you had another employee. And if you had another employee that was autistic or had another employee that has a disability, you worked with that one employee. Because a lot of times people are like, oh, I accommodated in another autistic employee. I'm going to get the same employee.

Maggie · 48:05

I know how to do that.

Sydney · 48:07

And it's like, this is two different people in two different situations. And so just ask me, hey, I see you're struggling a bit. Am I correct? How can I support you? Do you need anything from me to best be able? What tools can I give you? And what resources? Or do you need anything from me to better do your job? And really, having that human connection, having that human conversation. I think a lot of times employers or managers and people leaders think that they have to have all the answers. And want to just go ready and have the solutions for the employee. But really working with that employee and not really talking to them. You can have those things in your back pocket to pull from. And the employee doesn't really know what they need and talking them through and having some solutions ready. But people know, we know what we need to be successful. And sometimes we don't know exactly in that moment, but having that conversation, talking it out, we'll get to the reason of the tools and the resources we need to be successful. And just really listening to the person and seeing what they need in that moment. It could just be something else is going on that's contributing to the day. What does that look like? And so just asking, hey, how can I best support you? Is it today or in the long run?

Maggie · 49:21

Yeah, and I think that'll open the door for the conversation to go further if the employee wants to share more. Yeah, so we have a really good question in the chat here. Of course, we've got a lot of C-suite folks on, a lot of chiefs of staff and people with eyes on the C-suite as a future goal. How would you, and please let me know who wants to answer this question. How would you guide somebody who is not in the C-suite yet, but who is neurodivergent in preparing to work in the C-suite? What can they work on? How do they maximize their opportunity? How do they prepare for the environment of the C-suite? And how do they potentially navigate their neurodivergence, looking ahead towards a role in the C-suite?

Sydney · 50:10

I think it's such with understanding your strengths and what you would bring to that position. I think a lot of this with a lot of perception of what a founder is supposed to look like, or people that are supposed to look like. And you can get training on the intricacies of that. But what are the strengths you're bringing to the team? What are the strengths? What do you want to change in this environment? Is there anything that needs to be addressed? And really focusing on your strengths and who you are as a person, and your experiences that help shape you to get you to go into the C-suite. And I think sometimes even with people who are in the C-suite, they sometimes forget the humbling beginnings. I think it's a huge problem. And so really understanding where you came from and the impact you want to make in C-suite. And not focusing much on C-suite, which is usually known as a paradigmic and having power. But okay, what impact do you want to leave instead? And how do you want to, you know, if you are narrative in yourself and you're going to the C-suite, how do you want to make things for other people that are narrative like you in the workplace? And it's like, how is the culture currently doing in this regard? And really, you know, focusing on yourself and your experiences, but also the impact you want to make for your employees.

Maggie · 51:32

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I'd add on top of that, which is pretty much close to exactly what you're saying, Sydney, is to add on, reach out to as many people as possible in the current environment that you're looking to move in to C-suite or not, and just start having conversations. And like Sydney is saying, like, start to understand what the work environment is like, and then start to feel like, does that feel safe to you? Does that feel like a place where you can shine and grow and feel good? But in neurotypical conversations as well, it's like start having those conversations, seek people out who are in those environments, and then seek out the environment you want to work in, especially if it's within your own company, and start to get familiar with the people who were there, which will make things feel a lot more safe, hopefully. Or you'll be like, nope, this is not for me, and which is also really good information to have. Yeah, Eliana.

Eliana · 52:29

Yeah, just with the concept of reaching out, I know I would also definitely try and find other neurodivergent people in the C-suite to talk to, and form those. I'm obviously biased because peer mentorship is our whole thing, but definitely those peer mentorship relationships can actually help so much, just hearing how other people have navigated the situation, bring up a specific conversation you've had with one of your bosses, and hearing how other people would respond to that, and whether they've gone through something similar. Just having awareness within your organization can be really helpful, but also just across different organizational contexts, and seeing how other people with summer life experiences, whether you're neurodivergent or feel like you were laid, or you have other experiences in addition to being neurodivergent, that impact your experiences as a leader. Just connecting with other people who share that stuff, and having honest conversations in the safe environment can really be game-changing. So you can join AndiConnect for that. But also, you can even search on LinkedIn like neurodivergent, like CFO or whatever, and then see who comes up, especially because a lot more of us are openly identified.

Maggie · 53:32

Yeah. Yeah. It's been really fun connecting with all three of you to see the networks that you have and to see my feed change. And now I'm learning a ton more than I knew before, especially before this call around neurodivergence, and seeing other thought leaders in this space in addition to you guys, talking about how to help our peers and how to learn and grow and understand things better and be better allies and function also as neurodivergent people. So there's a lot of resources out there on the web. But I do think there's a connection point to Eliana's point. ND Connect, go check it out. We'll send, like I mentioned earlier, we'll send a recap of this call via email with the recording and with everybody's personal notes, LinkedIn profiles, companies, and some resources for everybody. With that, I'm going to continue to go through a few more questions. Feel free to pop any questions you have into the Q&A portion of this chat. We're not monitoring the chat today, but the Q&A box down below, we have a lot of questions in there, which is great. So feel free to add your questions there. So what are some ways that workplaces and maybe peers also, like let's talk about workplaces and let's talk about neurotypical peers, can make their environments more inclusive for their neurodivergent peers? Obviously, we could talk about lighting or sound or cameras and surveys and all the things, but from your perspective, what's the best way that companies, and we talked about having an open conversation, but when it comes to tactical things that companies can do, what are those things? Does anybody want to, Eliana, do you want to start with that? We'll go to Jessica next.

Eliana · 55:16

Definitely. I think one thing, there's some really interesting ways to drown this, where we already talked about the concept of ask, don't assume, but I think that's really important to take a very individualized approach, because there's a lot of times where there's a manager, and they're operating in good faith, but a new employee will enter that company, they'll know that that employee is autistic or something similar, and then that employee will be put in a corner by themselves, to have a quieter work environment because people know that autistic people may get more over-stimulated sometimes. But making sure that it's not just about productivity, but it's also about how does this person fit into the broader organization? Do they feel like they belong? Are social opportunities inclusive to them? Are you introducing them and helping them get their foot in the door and meet people in leadership? So I would really take a broader approach to that. The other thing is, I'd say just in general, like offer as much flexibility as possible and believe people about their needs and experiences. You know, in camp and meetings, for example, have a default that people can participate with, like their cameras off, cameras on, in chat, out loud. You know, you can even model as a leader, like sitting on the floor, you know, like, and it can sound a little bit funky, but like you have a lot of power just being in a leadership position. And so, you know, making it, making like an accessibility statement like that, and like not penalizing people for participating, but encouraging people to really like show up in the way that meets their needs, and like you being vulnerable and also showing up in the way that meets your needs, I think, can make a huge difference. And this is something that I really like to have everybody reflect on in organizations because we all have access needs, like that's the reality. It's just that a lot of times neurotypical people don't think about them as much because the environments are set up more by default to support you. But think about it. It doesn't have to be like, I have ADHD, so that's why I need XYZ. It can be, I'm somebody who really benefits from a quiet work environment, or I really direct feedback. And so having the whole team reflect and also share what their access needs are, kind of separate from any diagnosis, I think can make a huge difference. And then trying to set up the environmental conditions and the processes and the structures within each team to really support people. And as new people join, also expect the norms of your team dynamics to also change, because everybody is different and has different needs. So being adapted and flexible that way.

Maggie · 57:42

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Jessica, anything to add there?

Jessica · 57:47

Yeah, a few things. So when we talked previously in our prep call, we talked about, Shay had mentioned he uses a Working With Me document. And I think those are really great for leadership to put into place. It sets a clear expectation of how we communicate. And I think all employees should really be doing that because I have that information about you. It makes it easier for me to adjust when I'm speaking to you and how I'm addressing things. When I was an executive assistant, I did a lot of offsite planning. And because I'm aware of what accommodations make me more comfortable, I'm able to create a more comfortable environment for my fellow teammates. So I would make sure that I scheduled breaks between the sessions, like decent sized breaks. And everybody had a couple hours to chill before they're expected to come to an evening event. Lots of downtime. Quiet rooms are really great. When I'm doing speaking events, I always appreciate if there's a quiet space that I can go to get ready to speak. And then when I was onboarding employees as well, something that I would do is I would just break down social norms within the organization. So the thing about cameras being off, it's like, hey, you can leave your camera off. It's really not a big deal. There's no expectation to have it on here. We do this, and this is why we do that. Something as a nerd a virgin is I don't ever take orders without asking why. I always need to know why. So being open to answering questions about things and getting more context, because the more context I have, the more that I can like... I'm almost like Chat GPT in that way, where the more context I have, the more I can filter down my answer to you and give you the most specific best answer. So that was another thing I liked about The Last of You that I supported, is that when he would ask me to do something, I'd be like, okay, here's 17 questions. He would give me a much better response, and I was able to go with that, but I cannot deal with ambiguity even in the slightest. I need details, I need information, and I can go from there. So I always try and provide a lot of information and context and explain that I am completely open to a dialogue with people because I haven't always been made to feel that way in my life where I was allowed to have an open dialogue about why we're doing what we're doing.

Maggie · 1:00:02

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I want to ask another C-suite question here. For neurodivergent leaders, especially when they're in the C-suite, if they're leading a large team and maybe they are consciously or unconsciously wanting to set an example for people on their greater team, potentially neurodivergent people on their team. Do you suggest that they unmask a bit or talk openly about their neurodivergence? It's such a personal decision, but how would you recommend a neurodivergent leader approach unmasking to help people on their team feel more comfortable in their neurodivergence? Who would like to take this? Sydney?

Sydney · 1:00:49

I think understanding that representation matters, and a lot of times neurodivergent folks and disabled folks don't see themselves in places of higher leadership, such as the C-suite. I think it could be a huge opportunity in reflecting on, again, your own experiences and it's like, what do you wish someone had to love for you when you were in the entry level, or when you were in a lower position at the company or in other companies, and recognizing your privilege to be in this place, but also understanding that you have to come from a place of safety and being safe for yourself at the same time. And so understanding that people are disclosing at a lower level in your organization that they're nearer to verge and that they're struggling with this. And I actually spoke at a company and the CEO disclosed and wanted to do this training because she disclosed to her team and disclosed to her company that she was nearer to verge and very open about that. And I think just the more open you can be in understanding that, you know, again, that impact I mentioned earlier and, you know, realizing, OK, how do you want to shape this company as a leader and understanding and recognizing your own privilege and this really unique opportunity you're given to, you know, let people at lower levels, oh, wait, wait, it's possible to become a C-suite leader in this company and being nearer to verge because I think a lot of times we think that, oh, we had to be in only entry-level positions or we can only do certain jobs because that's how media and how it's been portrayed. And so to see ourselves in these positions is so important. And I'm a founder, I'm a CEO technically of a company. And I recognize my privilege to be able to be a racialized person that's also nearer to virgins in this space. And so I think recognizing the importance that you're going to have showing employees. And if you want to have a more inclusive culture and really walk the walk and talk the talk, it starts from there. And I think we'll have a better trickle down effect if you're open about that.

Speaker 2 · 1:03:19

Yeah.

Sydney · 1:03:20

Because I think a lot of times it doesn't trickle down as effectively, and it's not really fully understood, or it's a huge mess sometimes. And so by being more open and vulnerable, and you don't have to disclose exactly what needs to be done unless you feel safe, but just even saying, hey, I'm neurodivergent, that is so powerful and can impact the company in such a positive way.

Maggie · 1:03:52

Yeah. I mean, representation matters is absolutely right. And we're all on our own personal journey and different stages of that journey. But I think it's a really, really good point. Eliana, question to you. What do you wish neuro-typical people did more of and less of when interacting with you?

Eliana · 1:04:18

Good question. I have to go back for a second. Okay, I think this is just this is a very like personal one, just based off of my own access needs and how I show up in spaces. But people often assume that I am nervous because I talk really fast. And so it'd be nice to just know that like people have different talking speeds and like you can tell me to slow down. But I think not like assuming that I'm like rushing or whatever, based off of how I communicate would be really helpful. Another thing is that I'm a very curious person, so I ask a lot of questions. And sometimes I think people are not used to that directness. And so it can make them feel like even if I'm very direct, like I really want to move forward with you in a partnership. I just want to understand like how it's going to work. So, you know, let me just be clear that like, yes, I want us to move forward. Me asking questions isn't expressing hesitation, but I have a lot of questions. But then people will still, even if I make that very direct statement, people think I'm not being honest. I'm like, can you listen to me? I'm telling you exactly what I'm thinking. I'm a very trans person. There's no other layer to my communication. So can you just take my word for what I'm directly saying to you and not try and read into the social cues where we might be having some communication difficulties? And so that's a common point of frustration where I'm like...

Maggie · 1:05:46

I feel you on that one.

Eliana · 1:05:48

One thing that I wish people did more of is also, yeah, tell me how to best communicate with you. Tell me how to best support you in the workplace. Tell me what you need as a peer. You know, I think the thing is that... Oh, and also treat any communication breakdowns or conflicts as happening relationally between two people, instead of the blame for that falling within any one person. And so I think that commitment to giving each other the benefit of the doubt, to working through issues collaboratively as a team, kind of like what people do in healthy relationships or healthy marriages, like applying that to work context too. But I think that that kind of view and commitment to seeing each other as positive collaborators, that we're figuring things out together. And if something happens that goes wrong, like we're a team trying to figure out how to set up systems or processes to help support both of us. And this is not happening again next time, versus it being like, you know, you have a very chaotic communication style and it's really unclear to me, and it's your fault, communicate clearly, you know, or like vice versa. So like, I think that like I should also be like, how can I best accommodate and support your communication needs here? And so that kind of approach is something that I really love about my team. And it takes some time to implement sometimes, but yeah, I think that's kind of like the thing that I love the most.

Maggie · 1:07:09

I love that. I have a few questions from the audience that I'm going to go into, unless Jessica or Sydney, you had anything else to add on what you prefer neurotypical people do or don't do differently. Eliana covered it. Sydney, you got one?

Sydney · 1:07:23

I feel like Eliana mostly covered it. I think realizing that I really like what I said before, some days I can get things, other days I can't. And for example, if I get enough sleep, with all these different factors, and if I had, like I said, the CPTSD, so if I had a nightmare on edge more, what does that look like if it's an anniversary, a traumatic event, and just really being patient, and being patient with me, being patient with yourself as you're learning how to best communicate with me and navigate that. It's a two-way street in really understanding that we always want to be understood at the end of the day, neurodivergent or not, and so just adding that little bit of care and wanting to understand, coming from a mutual place of wanting to understand, and that mutual care is so important.

Maggie · 1:08:24

Yeah, I love that addition. I've got some good questions from the audience here. So we're going to start with this one from Anonymous. What are some tips for navigating perfection as the only thing tolerated in C-suite environments? Jessica, do you want to take this one?

Jessica · 1:08:42

Their expectations are not my problem. They are not a reflection of who I am at the end of the day. Depersonalizing, that is a big help for me. I know that I'm doing my best. I know that I'm working within the confines that I've been given. And I know that you can lead groups of people and employees with respect and dignity and kindness, even if they're making a mistake. So if I'm being treated really poorly because I make a small mistake where it's just really flippant, that's a sign for me that that's not the environment for me. And I'm going to go and I'm going to find somewhere that's going to treat me with respect, because that's a problem where they cannot see their own flaws enough to recognize, oh, they're a human being too, and they're going to make mistakes. But it is possible. It's completely possible, because I do it every day. And I watch my husband do it with his team, where it's like you can treat people decently, even if they made a mistake. So I don't think there's a way to work around it. And I'm no longer at a point in my career where I'm going to sacrifice my well-being for somebody else's lack of healing. I'm not going to disturb my peace that way. So I think that getting honest with yourself about who you are and the work that you're doing and is this actually fulfilling to me, is actually probably what needs to be focused on more of like, how do I actually shift my career to be in a place that supports me and can see me as a person? And your career doesn't have to stop. There's plenty of other places. And sometimes we learn about ourselves in a role, and then we can take that and bring it to our next job and start with new boundaries and new expectations of how we're allowed to be treated.

Maggie · 1:10:35

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there are a lot of environments out there that have more of a culture of failing fast, learning from your mistakes, and going quick, you know, moving on. In addition to vulnerability over perfection. I know that that's been one of my biggest leadership lessons over the last 20 years of leading people. Perfectionism wasn't it. You can't relate to people when you're perfect, right? You can relate to people when you're vulnerable and you make a mistake and you talk about moving on and moving up and recovering and how things make you feel and relating to the people that work with you. So you know, Jessica, I think you put that really, really well. And if it's not your environment, if the environment doesn't feel right, then it might be time to find a new one. OK, so here's another question from Millie. I am an EA supporting an ADHD business owner. What advice would you give to providing the best support possible?

Jessica · 1:11:34

Ask a lot of questions. Ask a lot of questions. Talk to people. That's how I did it was, you know, people, we see this different ation a lot of times where EAs will come to me and say, oh, you know, how can I be a strategic business partner? And it's like, oh, well, I just went and I talked to everybody in the company. And then I started solving problems. And I think that's how I was able to give amazing service. But support was that I uniquely understood the company in a way that nobody else did. And so I was a great sounding board because they could come to me and be like, oh, like, what's the feel on this? Like, you know, what's the general mood? And I was able to like speak to that kind of information. So I think it's about once again, like embracing, like, what am I actually really good at? I'm a really good connector. I'm really great at figuring out point A and point B and solving a problem based off of it. So, you know, it's less about how do I fit myself into this box of what society has said great support is and how to be a perfect executive assistant. And more about this is a unique situation. This is a unique person. I'm a unique person. Like, how can I synergize that and embrace it and excel in that way?

Eliana · 1:12:43

One of the things that I would add, like, and like, I agree with Jessica, but, like, everybody's different, ask a lot of questions. I know that's really good advice, but some 80s peers might not have as much self-awareness around executive functioning difficulties. And, like, I'm really lucky because I feel like I have a language to advocate for what my needs are. But that is, like, a common thing that, like, a lot of ADHD founders say, like, that's, like, the main thing that gets in the way of them being successful in different domains of their business. So I would say if you can, like, look into that a little bit, just even if this person doesn't struggle with it, or struggle with, like, all of the executive functions, I think having that awareness and then being able to also identify, like, okay, this person might need some support with task initiation. These are some specific strategies that can, like, help with that. And, like, being able to have that sort of, yeah, like, awareness. I know in my life, that, like, makes a huge difference. So there's one person on my team who, like, really understands that stuff and, like, really supports me with it. And it's very, very game-changing just having somebody who's like, hey, I know you need reminders. Here's your reminder. Here's the meeting. Like, here's the information you need. And so I think if you are working with ADHD-ers, that you're looking to support understanding that specifically to be really helpful.

Maggie · 1:13:54

Yeah, I love all of that. And the comment section does too, which is great. So much for turning off comments. I'm happy they're on. Okay, so this is from Adita. I see representation in the C-suite in my company, but they conform to neurotypical standards. Maybe to obviously accept, maintain power, keep themselves safe. There's a lot of reasons this could be the case. But Adita is wondering how can they be there on authentic self and still climb up the ladder to C-suite? I have some thoughts as a career coach, but I want to hear from you guys first. Thoughts on how they manage this when they are seeing a little representation, but they're conforming to neurotypical standards. I'll take what I can here because I think we've discussed a lot with panelists on different ways to advocate for yourself. My suggestion is what I also share with neurotypical people is to document and track your wins and start to learn and get comfortable articulating them. Different ways to do that is create a wins folder, literally just in your inbox. If somebody gives you good feedback, drag and drop. You can also do this in folders in your share drive or wherever. When you get to the point of having a difficult conversation or an exciting conversation about transition, go back to that wins folder, organize your thoughts, and as I mentioned, practice talking about what you've done well and what you're really good at and your contribution to your business. If you feel comfortable, also talk about your neurodivergence or the ways that you feel most supported and how that support enables you to be an even better employee. This is a little bit more of just a generic neurotypical response as well, but document your wins, start getting comfortable talking about what you're good at, and identify mentors in your company who can help advocate for you. So a lot of those conversations around high potential employees and next steps and promotions are happening behind closed doors that you are not in. Having people who know your name, who you've done a solid project for, who you have told the amount of great work that you've done to, and they have that fresh on their mind and they bring that up to their peer who's looking for the person to move on to their team, these are all really good things. So personal advocacy, being learning how to tell your story and tracking those wins is what I would say there. Back to the panelists here, what are your thoughts on sharing your neurodivergence when having interviews or filling out job applications? We have multiple questions about that.

Jessica · 1:16:43

When I started looking for a job after I got laid off, I found very quickly they stopped responding to me if I said that I was ADHD and that I had some accommodations that I would need. I don't recommend disclosing in the interview process, to be totally honest. I think for your best success, don't and then later on you can start talking about it once you are securely in your job. It's part of the reason why I feel like it's my responsibility to talk about that I'm ADHD, is like I am in a position of privilege where like nobody's going to punish me for talking about it online or things like that. And I think that every time you acknowledge it publicly, you're kind of taking away from the stigma and the shame about it. And I'm saying it's a morally neutral thing to be. But unfortunately, there are people who don't see it that way at the current moment. And in this job environment, especially you really have to advocate for yourself in the best way possible. And unfortunately, it's not always safe. I wish it was.

Maggie · 1:17:41

Yeah, I would agree. Did you have something quick to add, Eliana?

Eliana · 1:17:45

Yeah, I think I agree with that generally. But there's one caveat, which is a lot of people in our community have gotten interviews through referrals from other people who share neurotypes. So if you're talking to... Sometimes if you have an ADHD or who's an HR manager or something similar, they're hosting the job and they're open about it, whether that's on LinkedIn or more in a private or divergence-oriented space. Definitely, like to suppose in those contexts, is what I would say, especially because those shared similarities can also be helpful in you.

Maggie · 1:18:16

Yeah.

Eliana · 1:18:17

I'm more likely to get it and want to be part of it. So yeah.

Maggie · 1:18:21

Do your research, know your people, know who's connecting you. Yep. I love all of that. Back to a language question here. So really probably only time for maybe one more question after this. We've gotten a few questions about this. How do you feel about the language, the medical language of diagnosis when it refers to neurodivergent? Is it a neutral term? Is it a negative term? Is it positive? Is it helpful? Who wants to take this one? Or maybe you have different differing views.

Sydney · 1:18:50

I think it's interesting because now people are also doing self-diagnosis. And I think when it comes down to do you think it's going to help you better be supported in your work environment and your day-to-day life? You know, what does that actually mean? I think that I see both sides of the coin, if I'm honest. I think it's stemmed from getting that support and being more understood and also for your safety. And so safety is number one at the end of the day, kind of to your previous question as well, that if someone feels safe to say their diagnosis, they feel safe and vulnerable enough to express that. But it should not, I don't think it's a bad thing in this context. I think sometimes people feel you could also use it to twist or have a certain perception of you in the head or have a bias towards you. And so I think really understanding that it should stem from, okay, would this allow me to have better support and to live a more compelling life and to do work that I'm proud of and that I'm passionate about? And well, and if I'm around people, they will not take advantage if I do say my diagnosis. And that understand that it just, I want to say that because it's going to help them understand me more. And I feel like I could do better and thrive more if I do disclose.

Maggie · 1:20:14

Yeah. Well, thank you for that. We are at time. I'd like to share a fun fact that that last question came from the Mensa Foundation. So thank you for being with us. What a cool organization to have on our call. And wow, I have goosebumps. I've learned a lot. I feel humbled and like I've got a million more questions and just so thankful to have Jessica, Eliana and Sydney here. I appreciate all three of you for coming on and driving awareness and education and opening up the conversation. If I could say one last thing, it would be have these conversations in your circles, at your work, at your network, in small ways that you can with people in your world to start helping other people feel more comfortable coming out because representation matters. So with that, thank you, everybody. You will receive a recording and a bit of a summary of the call with some resources and links. This was really great. Have a wonderful day, everybody. Thanks, panelists.

Sydney · 1:21:22

Please review on Apple Podcasts.

Jessica · 1:21:31

goburrows.com.