Dawn Marraccino on Recovering from Burnout

Dawn · 0:00

Hi, I'm Dawn Marraccino. Today's leadership quote comes from Brene Brown, and it is that clear is kind, unclear is unkind.

Speaker 3 · 0:14

The Leader Assistant Podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become confident, game-changing leader assistants.

Jeremy · 0:30

Thanks for watching! Everyone is talking about Nova Chief of Staff, and it's no surprise when graduates walk away with huge benefits, like greater confidence and the validation that they can do the role. There are over 300 students in the Nova Chief of Staff Certification course, many of which are growth-minded executive assistants like you. Many of the leader assistants taking the course aren't necessarily looking for a promotion, they simply want to become more effective, strategic, and game-changing assistants. Over 18 countries around the globe are represented by students in Nova's course. So I highly recommend you join the club. Visit leaderassistant.com/nova to learn more about this amazing professional development resource. Hey friends, welcome to The Leader Assistant Podcast. It's your host Jeremy Burrows, and this is episode 278. You can check out the show notes for this episode at leaderassistant.com/278. That's leaderassistant.com/278. And today I'm very excited to be speaking with Dawn Marraccino. Dawn is a seasoned life coach and executive assistant coach, and she has over 20 years of experience in the nonprofit sector. Dawn, welcome to the show.

Dawn · 1:49

Oh, thank you, Jeremy. It's a privilege to be here. Definitely followed you for a long time and I'm super grateful.

Jeremy · 1:56

Awesome. And what part of the world are you in?

Dawn · 1:58

I am in sunny Newport Beach, California. So Southern California, Orange County.

Jeremy · 2:04

Love it. I am sitting here staring at the cloudy, cold Kansas City weather, wishing I was in the beach right now.

Dawn · 2:15

It's pretty great. I do. I can't complain.

Jeremy · 2:19

Now, I hear you have an interesting living situation, so tell us a little bit more about your headquarters in Newport Beach.

Dawn · 2:27

I do have an interesting living situation. During COVID, my husband and I took the plunge and bought a beautiful 47-foot sailboat named Bellamy and Dawn. He was smart and named it after his wife. And in June of this year, we made a decision to go ahead and actually live aboard. So here we are, and it comes, I'm sure you've seen on some social, some reels of tiny houses, so it's a tiny house. Tiny house on water, yes. So you think about, it was very cold in the winter. I know not cold Kansas City, cold, not cold New York, cold, not cold, you know, Alaska cold. But when you think about sitting in water during the winter, and it dips down to 45 around here, you know, maybe low 40s, it was a little chilly. But the summer is phenomenal. Looking forward to another year. Can't wait, actually. I've been shocked at how well I've adapted. And we have a adorable little 14-pound golden doodle that we share the space with as well.

Jeremy · 3:31

Wow, that's awesome.

Dawn · 3:33

Yeah.

Jeremy · 3:34

Well, I definitely will have to get a good picture of you on your boat.

Dawn · 3:39

You betcha.

Jeremy · 3:39

To share in the show notes for this episode so people can check it out.

Dawn · 3:44

Jeremy, you come to Newport Beach, we'll take you out in the ocean. So we absolutely love doing that. So anyone can hit me up. It's one of a joy. So we don't just live on it. We go out in the ocean. We sail to Catalina, which is about 26 miles from here, spend weekends. It's pretty phenomenal. So it's been fun. We're adventurers. My husband just climbed Kilimanjaro. We like adventure.

Jeremy · 4:05

Wow. Yeah. So do you, how long have you been an adventurers? Did you, do you have kids or they, did they grow up? And you're like, oh, well, let's, let's adventure now. Like, what's your kind of story there?

Dawn · 4:17

I love that question. I love that Jeremy. We have four children. They are grown. I have three amazing grandkids that are ranging in age from 10 to 16. Our grandkids, our kiddos are all adults. And we were, we moved back to Orange County from Dallas. We had been living there. We were sitting on the water in a restaurant right around the corner from where our boat is and said, let's take up sailing. We read a book called The Sail of Two Idiots. There's a plug. And I was like, I think we can do this. And long-term goal is actually to sail to the Caribbean from Orange County. So like always adventures. No, we did Little League. Like what do you have kids? What do you do? I do Little League. We did soccer. We did baseball. We did dance. You do, you know, I was working moms. So no, I wouldn't say we're always adventures.

Jeremy · 5:12

Well, now you've got a lot of time then I guess to explore the world. Absolutely.

Dawn · 5:17

Empty nest. Cool.

Jeremy · 5:19

Well, tell us a little bit about your career. What got you into the assistant career?

Dawn · 5:25

Oh gosh, Jeremy, it was haphazard. You have a lot of guests. I certainly listened to a fair number of your shows and it's not always an unusual route. So I was attending a little church called Saddleback where Pastor Rick Warren, you may have heard of the book Purpose Driven Life. So we were here in Orange County attending that church and I got tapped on the shoulder, was in some women's leadership and was asked to start part-time temporary until they found another assistant because I had some administrative gifts. Our 27-year-old was in kindergarten at that time and that has turned into a beautiful career. So did I dream of being an assistant when I was a little girl? No. I'd be curious Jeremy, has anyone ever said, yes, I always wanted to be an assistant. I think it's kind of a windy road sometimes. And I had a lot of administrative gifts. I had a background in, actually, I was in retail management. I worked at Nordstrom and was in management and a few other. Ann Taylor, some places, had kiddos, I taught group exercise, did travel agent. I'm kind of gritty and a little bit of a hustler, meaning I'm going to always find something to be doing. And I was in leadership at the church and was just tapped. And here I am now over two decades later, honestly. So I've had just an amazing privilege to be on staff at three different large churches in two different states. That was never my intention. I didn't, again, you don't, I don't know. Like I said, I've listened to some of your shows and it usually a lot of times it ends up that way.

Jeremy · 7:03

Right.

Dawn · 7:04

Right.

Jeremy · 7:05

Yeah. I mean, I think there was maybe one or two that I've talked with that it's not necessarily that they dreamed of it, but like maybe their mom was an assistant and they kind of grew up like in that seeing it and started really young as well, taking after their mom. So, but yeah, it's not like it's like and there's this general deal back in the day where it was like, hey, what do you want to be when you grow up? Astronaut, firefighter, you know, exactly. And yeah, it's don't know that anybody actually said an executive assistant.

Speaker 4 · 7:39

Sure.

Dawn · 7:40

And maybe, you know, fortunately, you know, I certainly was never air quotes secretary. Like I don't even think even going back 20 years, it was definitely you're an EA. And I've just loved the space that you and a lot of other voices have created where you're a strategic partner and fortunate. I've been fortunate to work for several people that actually empowered me and said those things to me that like, no, you're a strategic partner.

Speaker 4 · 8:08

No.

Dawn · 8:08

And allowed me to operate in that space so that I grew myself in leadership. I grew and I love like, you're an assistant. And I think that sometimes people still think it's about getting coffee and I'm not opposed to getting coffee. I don't, but it's really cool. Like, sure. I also have been a key stakeholder in $50 million capital campaigns. I've also galvanized volunteers and been just given amazing opportunities of working in spaces that certainly expand beyond what I think people typically think of an executive assistant. So I've just been really fortunate to have worked along some absolutely strategic, amazing leaders that have allowed me to grow and nudged me to grow and encouraged me to grow and given me a seat at the table. So it's been absolutely fantastic.

Speaker 4 · 9:02

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Jeremy · 9:44

That's great. What's maybe something, you know, for those listening that are like, oh, you know, I really see the value in being a strategic partner and I want to be one, but I don't know that my organization or my team or my executive is on board or knows how, knows that that's kind of what can happen and should happen really. And so what's maybe a practical tip for those listening if they just simply want to say, okay, how do I A, become a strategic partner practically, but B, you know, for lack of a better word, convince my executive that I should be a strategic partner?

Dawn · 10:27

Absolutely, because I've seen it. You know, it's been over 22 decades and I've been in three different mega churches. So not every person, nor every role that I have been in has permitted that, you know, within those organizations. Most recently, I was Eric Geiger's assistant at Mariners Church and he wrote Simple Church. He's a bestselling author. And having a simple conversation with him is actually all I needed to do. So I do encourage and it's scary. I don't know why it's so scary. But if you see an area you want to play in, like if you're good at something, you're naturally gifted, or you have any background in something or even just want to do something, I highly encourage you to actually sit down and have the courageous conversation. Because I wanted to be a part of a capital campaign. I wanted to have more involvement in the donor relationship aspect. It's something that I was naturally good at. So it was a unique combination of being good in the details as well as big picture. So I pressed in on that and was allowed to be a key stakeholder. The other area, I'm a Bible nerd, guys. I have a degree in religion. And so I was like, can I review your manuscript for your weekend? And started, and then I ended up a permanent fixture on the teaching team. Now, what I mean by that is I'm not teaching because just for listeners to have clarity, I'm a part of the meeting that reviewed the manuscript on a weekly basis for a message that was going out on a weekly basis. So, and a lot of times it was, you know, this would be funny. So I think, you know, you're doing something on mental health. You need to quote L. Woods. He's like, who's L. Woods? I'm like, L. Woods, Legally Blonde. Exercise gives you endorphins. Endorphins make you happy. Happy people just don't kill their husbands. Like, it'll be funny. So just, I encourage you. I know it's scary, but if you know something, you're a secret weapon. Like, you need to, like, have the confidence. And this might not be popular, so you can edit this out, Jeremy. You know, like, but if you're not seeing that way, move on. Life is way too short. So there are organizations, and I'm not in a like, oh, quit. I have longevity at places. But at times, I think it is, like, my value. Jamie Lynn Kerma, I am a huge fan of. She is the person who developed the IT Cosmetics, was purchased by L'Oreal. She's a woman billionaire who speaks so much, and she wrote a book on worthiness, and it's called Worthy. And recently, I was reading it, and she said, God's just hiding your preciousness. I don't want to misquote her, but basically, God's hiding your brilliance from them for now. So however, whoever you're, like, whatever belief system you have, I happen to be a Christian, but whatever you believe, like, your brilliance is just being hidden from them. So don't take it personally. Like, rejection is just a part of life. So if they don't see that, don't be afraid to do it again. I guess that's a long answer, man.

Jeremy · 13:53

No, it's all good. Thanks for sharing. Tell us a little bit about the challenges that you've had in your career. And maybe, I know we're going to talk about burnout for sure, but maybe some specific examples of, like, really, really challenging times and how you have to navigate that and maybe doubting yourself in the midst of those challenges and all the things.

Dawn · 14:21

Big time. I mean, imposter syndrome is a real thing. And as an EA, I have definitely suffered from it. Do I really deserve a seat at the table? Am I in here to simply take notes? Am I? And there's nothing wrong if you're there to take notes. But I'm saying, like, if you are feeling something stirring inside of you, and I have struggled with that, like, where is my seat? Do I have a seat? I'm in the leadership room. Am I allowed to speak? Like, I mean, this is a real thing. And as I have matured, I have come to that. And working with people that value that has also helped me grow in that area. So allowing that, I remember a specific situation. We were transitioning from the founding person of the church into current leadership. And I was asked if I would consider being considered to support the new person. And I thought, consider being considered, is that an invitation to an interview? I didn't really understand it. And it was a confusing time. So any season of transition within any organization, there's no surprise that one of my favorite quotes is clarity is kindness, right? Clear is kind. So you're living in a fog, there's a swirl of confusion, information being cascaded and just being steady in that. And just not contributing to office drama, not contributing to any gossip. To just be steady is my biggest thing and to believe the best in others. So to always be looking at, I believe the best. Like, do I believe the best in these people? Yes, I do. And I believe, so if there's any doubt, use your voice. I think that's one of the things that I would just say over and over, Jeremy, in an appropriate way. Now, mind you, I'm not using my voice in the middle of an executive leadership team and banging my fist on a table and saying, hey, listen to me. I'm finding the nuances. There are nuances to being an EA and finding the nuance of, let me speak to my leader at the appropriate time in a private space. I'm a big believer in criticism in private praise in public. So not that we, and just to do what you say and always support publicly. I really, I just always believe that.

Jeremy · 16:51

Nice. So then talk about burnout. What's your story of burning out and how did you notice it? How did you come to that point?

Dawn · 17:03

Sure. Yeah, it's not an easy conversation, but I think it's an important one, particularly as so many people are facing different challenges emotionally, and mental health is so critical, and to care for yourself. So I was already in a season, I just shared with you, of transition. So we had transition senior leaders, so think CEO changing for those without a ministry context, right? So you have a large organization, you know, staff of over 300 people, which is definitely small in comparison to a lot of staff, but speaking for a church, that's a large size, multiple campuses. And I'm supporting the CEO, the senior pastor, the leader, and the growth was unbelievable. And I had on running shoes, let's just say I was running hard, there's a lot going on. And it's, there's a saying in ministry that Sunday comes, so Sunday comes every week. So you're, you know, if you've supported a speaker, if you've supported a leader who speaks, as well as leads, this is happening on a weekly basis, though. So there's all sorts of things you need to protect, you need to protect message prep times, but there's sermons, I mean, there's sermons coming out of that message. But there's also leadership, there's just still organizational budget, management, leading people, development, and then bam, the shutdown starts to happen. And there's a giant swirl of, is this like, we literally said, oh, we'll be back by Easter. And I was like, in a couple of weeks, surely we'll be back for Easter. I was one of about five people that continued to go into the office. I was telling my husband the other day that I remember driving down the local street, the local freeway, and there's no one on it. And I thought, do I need, I don't know if any of you all are Indian ground people. I'm a one, I'm a rule follower unless they don't make sense. So, but like perfectionism, all of that. And I'm like, am I going to get pulled over? Do I need a note in my car? So leading through COVID, and I would say leading and running alongside of a leader during such a radical time. Because if you recall, Jeremy, it wasn't just COVID, we had racial issues. We had political issues. And we, where I was on staff was very neutral. So respecting separation of government and state, and I really feel like we led well, but no one was happy. And I was on the front line for those phone calls. And I would literally get a phone call of someone really irate over one issue. And then the next phone call or email was someone viscerally opposed. In the same thing, though, I'm like, we can't literally win. We could not win. So it was vaccine, no vaccine, like mask, no mask, inside, outside. I think leading through all of that and not taking any time off and not, and being, and there was some bitterness that crept in. If you remember social media at the time, people like, I'm cleaning my closet and I'm making bread. I'm like, I'm afraid I'm going to come home and kill my family. Like, early on, I'm like, I'm living in fear. I'm going someplace. I'm around people. Am I going to come home and give them a virus that at this point we know nothing about? And then as time moved on, it was, we needed to change, right? So switch online, do kids ministry online, do, you know, high school ministry. And then we need to just meet outside. And well, we don't really, you know, I joked if you're familiar with any festivals, like Coachella or Stagecoach, I'm like, we now have Churchella. So it was all outside. So I was exhausted and I didn't use my voice. So again, I think that's going to be a reoccurring theme in our conversation today, Jeremy. And it makes me a little emotional because looking back at it, I support it phenomenal. My leader was phenomenal. And if I would have like a lot of EAs and maybe some of your listeners and maybe even you can resonate with this, I am a good soldier. And what I mean by that is I just smile and I do the work and I keep moving through it. And there's a protection. And I didn't exercise my own self-care of, I think I need to take a little bit of time off. I think I'm exhausted. And it started to show. And we stepped into a $50 million capital campaign that I mentioned that I was a key stakeholder of. You know, I always joke, I'm like, Eric, it's a great idea to do a capital campaign in the middle of a pandemic. But you know what? It actually went great. So all joking aside, and I loved what I got to do, but it doesn't mean it didn't come at a cost. And there came a time where I knew that I needed some time off desperately. And, you know, there's a lot of quotes about, people leave leaders, not jobs. I left my job. I didn't leave my leader. So I adore who I worked with. We're still close friends with his family. I left my job. I needed some time off. And sadly, it had got to a place where I, when I say I needed some time off, I took time off. I will be vulnerable with you and tell you that I am so grateful for my husband. We weren't living on our sailboat at the time. And that man would come out of his office because he works remotely in sales and would see me curled up on the couch sleeping a lot. So there was a literal period of, you know, there's a saying, sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is take a nap. Like, I needed to nap, I needed to rest. And I hold myself accountable for that, Jeremy. I really didn't. There was a lot of duplicity in me being the soldier moving through and then just having a face that everything was fine until I could no longer do it. And it even when I was asked to stay on, even when I was, you know, said, can you take some time off? I said, I really actually I just need I need like a break, Rick. And I took about six months off. And I didn't have the whole time, but I did for about a month. I know that sounds nuts, like, and even when I say it to you, it seems very out of body to me because I'm like, wow, that was a gnarly time. I thought a lot of counseling. I took a lot of walks. I got a golden doodle. I'm telling you, pets are the best therapy, at least for me. I really I love Dr. Caroline Leaf. I don't know if you're familiar with any of her stuff, but definitely really helped me during that time period, just her podcasts, different. I sought a lot, a lot of yoga. I just did a lot to care for myself in that time because I really I spent a lot of time with my friends and family and people that filled my cup. So my encouragement to wrap that like is use your voice again. And if you're hitting that wall and it's not about the hustle culture or, you know, whatever, it's hard for me to keep up with what culture we're in right now. You know, it was hustle culture, no hustle culture. I definitely just recommend that you, I should have paced myself and I would have been fine. I really believe that.

Jeremy · 25:02

Yeah. And by pace, you mean regular days off, regular vacations, things like that, turning your phone off, those kinds of things.

Dawn · 25:12

I think that's a great part. I made myself a little bit too available and I had, I would say, you know, boundaries are like a rubber band. I don't think we should have hard boundaries. I think they stretch, right? Like a boundary stretches, then it goes back. I think mine just stretched and broke. And, you know, because this is a podcast, I want to be super clear that it was not really my direct boss that violated. So when you become, the other thing I would say is allow people to do their jobs and don't save everything. So I found myself, and I think that's harmful to an organization. I don't think that's healthy leading. I think I created harm, which is painful for me to say. But if there was a ball being dropped, instead of letting it drop, I caught it, fixed it, moved on. And so that's not really healthy, right? Have you heard the juggling balls analogy where we're all juggling balls all day and some of them are rubber, one bounces, you pick it up, you move on. We're juggling, some of them are yarn balls, like knitting balls, it unravels. It's a little messier to clean up when you like pick it up. And then some of them are crystal balls. Like most things aren't crystal balls, Jeremy.

Jeremy · 26:34

I talk about it in my books, like urgent is rarely urgent. And we try to convince ourselves or our executives try to convince us that this is urgent, this is urgent, this is urgent. Actually, it's rarely the case.

Dawn · 26:49

Correct. Yeah. There's that old Stephen Covey quadrants with the urgent and important and the fourth. And like most things are important that are important, but like, I don't know, I just have a different philosophy now coming out of, I would even call it like a detox of running really hard for about two decades.

Jeremy · 27:11

So do you think that part of it was, you know, you said you want to jump in and fix it yourself and whatever. Do you think it was like micromanagement? Do you think it was controlled? Do you think it was approval? Like you wanted people's approval? Like what do you think was the underneath the surface there?

Dawn · 27:33

I've really had to peel back the layers on that one. So that's a lot of therapy right there because, you know, wherever we go, there we are. So I don't want to be that person in another environment, right? So I think a lot of it was care of my colleagues, very honestly, and I want everyone to win. Like, I literally want everyone to win, and I see how hard they're working, and everybody's juggling a lot. Now, remember, this is during the pandemic. So there is also confusion. There's world, like everything I just discussed that's going on in the world. And I think it was me not wanting my colleagues to fail. I want everyone to win desperately. Instead of just allowing natural, and it's not, so it's approval. So the bottom line, though, when you peel away layers, it's approval. Like, I want approval. I want other people to get approval. I want we're in a season of transition. We have new leadership. So I'm supporting that person. I want everyone to look good to him. When you work in a ministry context, too, these are my friends, Jeremy. Like, this is not, I go to church with these people. So I, you're doing everything. These are my best friends, too. I love these people. And I'm not, I guess you love people in all jobs. But like, when I say I love them and I'm like, Oh, I also want to mom them and protect them. I'm a little bit older. So it's like being, I work with a lot of younger millennials, Gen Z. So I want to like also help them to win and succeed. I didn't really, sure. In cases, it was helpful to my boss, right? Like, I mean, but I'm not helping the organization move forward. I'm not helping the health of people's own development. And it doesn't have to be personal. Like, that's the thing, too. It's not personal, it's work.

Jeremy · 29:30

Like, it's job. You touched on it. Like, and I, you know, for those listening that don't know, I worked in ministry for 12 years as well. And I was a pastor's assistant for nine and a half years or whatever. And it's just a whole, you know, you said, well, you know, I guess you can be really good friends and love your coworkers or whatever. That's true. But it's just a different dynamic. And it's, you know, you've got your spiritual community, you've got your work community, you've got your friends in your neighborhood. Like, they're all kind of in the same bucket. And so it can get a little confusing. But yeah, I think it's, honestly, I think that it's very common for assistants in ministry specifically to burn out because of what you described, which is like, Hey, I'm best friends with this person. I don't want them to look bad. Or, you know, I'm trying to help them out. And but I'm also trying to do that, you know, and it's like, Oh, my boss is my pastor, too. Like, that's kind of a weird dynamic, if we're honest.

Dawn · 30:36

100%. So like, if I have a theological question, like, who do I go to? Or when we were going to renew our vows, my husband and I, I was like, Eric, I like, it's kind of weird. You're my boss, too. But you're also my pastor. And like I said, I've been fortunate. I know there's a lot in headlines and things. I just consider myself privileged and fortunate that I have worked for absolutely spectacular people in every single one of my, even my first person, Lance Witt, that tapped me on the shoulder. We're still close friends to this day. And very gentle, very kind, very gracious. Like, I just feel fortunate because I know that it doesn't always look like that. And especially in like a pastor situation.

Jeremy · 31:24

Totally. So what's OK? You talked about napping, which I totally think. When my boss got fired and I kind of was like, you know what, I'm just going to leave the organization. It's time to rip the bandaid off and start over. And I sold my house and we I didn't I didn't get a real job, quote unquote, for like seven, eight months after that. But what was maybe practically maybe after that first month of just literally you're physically and emotionally just kind of your body, because the adrenaline, you just crash and you just need to recover after that and coming back into, you know, the real world, if you will. What's been what's been maybe helpful for you to, you know, in that recovery, but also in that, you know, idea of resisting going forward, resisting burnout going forward?

Dawn · 32:17

Yeah, it's a great question. So one of the things is refusing to compromise on certain things, even if I want to, meaning I have self boundaries. So because, like I said, no one else created those issues. I am not here to like, I really am a big believer in being responsible for your own behavior, you know, examining what part did I play in this? What part did someone else play in this? And in looking back, I was the one that didn't speak up. So moving forward, it is about creating a balance. And I started to put my big toe back in. I did a little bit of contract work for a nonprofit that was looking for some donor relationship. So really putting like just your toe back in the water. And that was probably like the interesting, almost the same exact timeline. That was about five months in to it. And I took savings out to live. Like you said, like there's just certain things that you need to do where I was like, yeah, I need this time in order to grow. And then even recently, I've been working on contract for an amazing nonprofit organization. And there was a health situation that was in my family. And I made a decision to leave something and come back and be with my family. So that's a boundary that I was like, no, I find it fascinating that I worked somewhere for eight years. I said no to countless things that were super important that I never even raised the question if I could go. And I had an opportunity recently with a health crisis in my family to show up. And I had to leave something and I just looked at and guess what? It was like, oh, my gosh, of course.

Jeremy · 34:02

Yeah.

Dawn · 34:03

Like, so I think practically speaking, as you're asking, is to really have those own boundaries, to have that reset for myself of I can't go back to being that person. That's just, yes, always that is rescuing everyone, that there's a level of professionalism. I actually will use that word of not intertwining everything in my life. Of not stepping back into things that way. And it doesn't mean I don't love hard because I am a hard lover and a hard like I'm a passionate fun and I want to be an amazing friend. I also had to go on an apology tour, Jeremy, speaking of friends. Like I had to go to my friends outside of work and go, I'm sorry. I wasn't there for you. I had to apologize to family. So that is another practical thing of just being accountable for my own stuff, just to make sure. Like, and I make the time to work out for me. I love to walk. We live in a beautiful area. It's gorgeous outside. So I set some boundaries for myself with that, that am I practicing the disciplines that help me to maintain my health? If you've ever been like burnout is thrown around a little bit. I'm talking about, like, I consider, do I need to go into a facility? Am I OK? Like, I'm not talking about just like I was a little tired. I'm talking about I was like, I'm not OK. Like, I am about to crack open. Like, and I can't be the only person, right? So I'm being very vulnerable with you because I think it's an important story, not just mine, but like, sometimes you're not OK. And you need to like I was like, I am not OK. And there's a lot of things that led me to that place of self-realization and self-actualization on that. I wasn't showing up well to my friends and family. And when your adult kids start saying, are you OK? I mean, you're going to have clues, people. Like it didn't just happen overnight. I didn't wake up one day and go, I think I'm a little tired. So I'm going to quit my eight year job that I love a lot.

Jeremy · 36:28

Right. And I talk about that. The signs of burnout and how it creeps up on us. It's not like you said, it's not overnight thing.

Dawn · 36:39

No.

Jeremy · 36:40

Well, Dawn, thank you so much for sharing your story and opening up to us. I really appreciate you spending the time. And I know that we have a lot of similar milestones, if you will, in our story and working in ministry and burning out and all the things. I'm not living on a sailboat yet. I'm not really a good swimmer, so I don't know if that'd be a great idea, but...

Dawn · 37:09

Here's a little clue. I'm afraid of sharks.

Jeremy · 37:12

Oh, there you go. There you go.

Dawn · 37:13

But you never know, Jeremy.

Jeremy · 37:16

What's the best place for people to reach out if they want to connect and say hi?

Dawn · 37:20

Oh, I would love to connect with any one of your listeners and anyone that this story resonated with and help in any way possible. Currently, I have the amazing privilege and honor. I actually work with churches and lead and senior pastors and coach executive assistants as well as their leader, because you would know and your listeners will know that if there's not that synergy and that unity between the two, then it's not going to work. So you can reach me at... Wow, I forgot my own website at executiveassistantdawn.com. So just executiveassistantdawn.com, and there's a button you can click there, and I would love to connect. Dawn Marraccino on LinkedIn. So thank you, Jeremy. Seriously, you're a joy. And I have loved watching just everything that you've done over the years. So I appreciate you so much and the community and the voice that you have created for EAs to be Leader Assistants.

Jeremy · 38:16

Awesome. Thank you, Dawn, for the kind words, and we'll definitely put your contact links in the show notes at leaderassistant.com/278. Thanks again for taking time, and we'll look forward to going on a boat ride someday.

Dawn · 38:32

Come on. We're here. Thanks, Jeremy.

Speaker 3 · 38:46

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